Series2 Networking Products

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Series2 Networking Products

Folks,

For those of you interested in networking your Hughes DirecTV HDTV HR10-250 (as well as other Series2 products) there are some exciting new developments worth mentioning, and I'd like to share some of them with you right now!

First and foremost, we now have the technology to finally begin offering kits, services, and utilities for effectively networking a variety of Series2 units (both standalone and DirecTV). For those of you who follow the nitty-gritty on the tools and techniques that have previously been available, you know that there have always been some strange ways to do this, but from a commercial standpoint, we found those methods to be cryptic, difficult and time-consuming to "mass produce" and most importantly, extremely difficult to support.

All that has changed. New tools have emerged from a group of very sophisticated and forward-looking developers. Historically, tools like this have been released under the GPL, which means they are freely available and redistributable to and by all. In this case, the tools have been released to the general public at no charge, however they are not free for folks like me, who would like the ability to build products and services around these technologies.

This is not a bad thing - in fact it's a good thing - we have made a sizable contribution to this development team, most of which is ear-marked for donation to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/). Most in this community would agree, the EFF is extremely worthy cause, they fight for our rights, both in the digital domain (as well as the analog one). In any case, our licensing agreement gives us the exclusive right to redistribute and incorporate these new tools, and the code they create, into our products and services - and this is what this post is about!

We intend to release a variety of products based upon these technologies, including but not limited to the following:

Pre-configured Upgrade Kits: drive(s) plus USB network adapter, required mounting hardware, tools, etc. and associated installation services. Drives will be configured with TiVoWebPlus, telnet, ftp, and TiVo linux "devbin" utilities.

Boot and Utility Disk with configuration scripts and utilities for DIY network configuration (and capacity upgrade tools) for your unit.

InstantCake to prepare basic, networked drives for the associated platforms we ultimately support.

With all that in mind, I'd like to hear a bit about what folks here want and can ultimately use before we ultimately push something out to you all that may or may not be useful to folks.

I'd like to use this thread to gather feedback, answer any specific questions about the tools, and get a better understanding of what makes the most sense as we develop these new tools.

Thx,
Lou

This is awesome news. I'd

This is awesome news. I'd love to have my HD TiVo and SD TiVo modified for networking so that I can manage them remotely. If I have 2 HD TiVo's modified could I stream recorded HD between them? How about copying recorded content from one to another?

Let me know when and where to send my unit(s) - I'm in!

I voted for the HD-TiVo but I

I voted for the HD-TiVo but I have a couple of series 2 DirecTv units that I would actually benefit from having networked as well. I didn't realize I could select multiple choices. Sorry.

Excellent! ETA?I'm happy to

Excellent! ETA?

I'm happy to hear that PTVupgrade has licensed killhdinitrd and will be providing some DIY CD-ROM packages for the DirecTiVos.

I have three specific questions:

1. What is your approximate ETA for this? (I don't expect anything exact, but would like to know whether you think this will take 1, 2 or 3 weeks, a month, etc.) I ask this because I've just collected all the parts I need to upgrade my HD DirecTiVo, and would prefer to do everything at once.

2. Will you have any sort of offer for people (like me :D ) who just purchased InstantCake or the Boot and Utility Disk (in my case both!) and would rather use the new version with networking?

3. Would you please consider including (at least as an option) Hackman in your TiVoWeb Plus installation?

Thanks in advance,
Peter

peterd said:I'm happy to hear

peterd said:

I'm happy to hear that PTVupgrade has licensed killhdinitrd and will be providing some DIY CD-ROM packages for the DirecTiVos.

I have three specific questions:

1. What is your approximate ETA for this? (I don't expect anything exact, but would like to know whether you think this will take 1, 2 or 3 weeks, a month, etc.) I ask this because I've just collected all the parts I need to upgrade my HD DirecTiVo, and would prefer to do everything at once.

2. Will you have any sort of offer for people (like me :D ) who just purchased InstantCake or the Boot and Utility Disk (in my case both!) and would rather use the new version with networking?

3. Would you please consider including (at least as an option) Hackman in your TiVoWeb Plus installation?

Thanks in advance,
Peter



Peter,

1) it will be at least a month for any DIY stuff, probably longer. we are going to do pre-packaged kits first (no eta, yet)

2) probably not going to happen - its very difficult to manage programs like that; we are small, and make very little money with the products you've mentioned - basically cover our costs of labor and shipping - to give a furthur discount on newer products would basically ensure a loss...

3) what is hackman, can you please elaborate? thx!

Thanks for your detailed &

Thanks for your detailed & specific reply. I appreciate the timeframe info, it helps me decide how to proceed. As to the discount, I hadn't really expected as much, but... nothing ventured, nothing gained! :D

tivoupgrade said:

3) what is hackman, can you please elaborate? thx!

Hackman is a Hack Manager module for TivoWeb and TivoWebPlus. This TiVo Community thread explains.

Let me try to get the dialog

Let me try to get the dialog onto a more productive track. We do not have extensive development resources or a budget that will fund major development projects to create amazing capabilities from your networked unit. As many of you know there are a variety of hacks available for both Series1 and Series2 units, such as TiVoWeb, TiVoWebPlus, and has requested a few posts ago, something called hackman. What would be useful here would be to know what hacks are you guys interested in (and why) and what hacks are you not interested in (and why not)?

Another thing that would be useful is to know the types of tools you need; DIY utils? Premium services, etc? What can we build around the existing technologies we have access to today?

Yes, it would be great to offer HMO, Replay functionality, and Microsoft Exchange Server on a unit, but that is simply not going to happen. Please keep the dialog going!

Thanks,
Lou

Some feedback as requested..

Some feedback as requested...

Lou -

For whatever it's worth, here's my $0.02 (how I'd approach this if I were in your shoes):

As you can see from how far afield the wishlists can get, I think (and it sounds like you're moving in this direction) your initial market should be those already familiar with existing hacks. They'll be the ones in the best position to give you useful feedback on the package you're offering. They are also the most self sufficient (least in need of support "hand-holding").

These are folks (like me) who, while not necessarily the ones who'd develop new hacks, are certainly capable of understanding how the existing hacks work. Many are technology professionals in their day jobs, have previous Linux experience, or are otherwise highly experienced with hardware and software. They may have done some hacking on their TiVos already (they have almost certainly upgraded capacity). But, they do not necessarily have (or wish to spend) the time to collect a group of hacks from various sources and read through pages and pages of forum posts to figure out which versions of which hacks work with which TiVo software version (and with each other) and individually install and configure each one. What you offer them is convenience.

Once you have some experience with this kind of user, you can refine your package to serve those who don't have as deep an understanding of the software. This is the group for whom a pre-formatted capacity upgrade is well within their DIY skillset (manual dexterity and the ability to follow instructions), but who (while aware that such things exist) would not be likely to attempt to install any software hacks which were not pre-packaged in the way you are planning to offer.

Of course there are a range of folks in the middle, but I use these two groups to illustrate the range of the market from early adopters to "main street." While the latter is where there's the most money to be made, targetting them with an initial release would probably be too support-intensive. They need a package which has had the benefit of being shaken out among the early adopters.

So, I would see releases of Boot & Utilities and Instant Cake disks (possibly packaged with USB NICs) making more sense than pre-formatted drives at first. That will let you get some feedback from folks who are more experienced with TiVoWeb, TyTools, mfs_ftp, etc.

As for specific hacks, I think the usual suspects for networked TiVos apply. Folks want ways to move content between TiVos (mfs_ftp, NFS, etc.) and archive their content (TyTools, etc.). These in turn require this patch. Accessing these capabilities and controlling the TiVo (TiVoWebPlus) and controlling the hacks (Hackman) of course go hand-in-hand...

I'm sure other hacks will suggest themselves (things like EndPadEdit)...

Oh, and let me say again thanks for everything you are doing to help us get the most from our TiVos!

Hope this helps,
Peter

peterd said:Lou -For whatever

peterd said:

Lou -

For whatever it's worth, here's my $0.02 (how I'd approach this if I were in your shoes):

As you can see from how far afield the wishlists can get, I think (and it sounds like you're moving in this direction) your initial market should be those already familiar with existing hacks. They'll be the ones in the best position to give you useful feedback on the package you're offering. They are also the most self sufficient (least in need of support "hand-holding").

These are folks (like me) who, while not necessarily the ones who'd develop new hacks, are certainly capable of understanding how the existing hacks work. Many are technology professionals in their day jobs, have previous Linux experience, or are otherwise highly experienced with hardware and software. They may have done some hacking on their TiVos already (they have almost certainly upgraded capacity). But, they do not necessarily have (or wish to spend) the time to collect a group of hacks from various sources and read through pages and pages of forum posts to figure out which versions of which hacks work with which TiVo software version (and with each other) and individually install and configure each one. What you offer them is convenience.

Once you have some experience with this kind of user, you can refine your package to serve those who don't have as deep an understanding of the software. This is the group for whom a pre-formatted capacity upgrade is well within their DIY skillset (manual dexterity and the ability to follow instructions), but who (while aware that such things exist) would not be likely to attempt to install any software hacks which were not pre-packaged in the way you are planning to offer.

Of course there are a range of folks in the middle, but I use these two groups to illustrate the range of the market from early adopters to "main street." While the latter is where there's the most money to be made, targetting them with an initial release would probably be too support-intensive. They need a package which has had the benefit of being shaken out among the early adopters.

So, I would see releases of Boot & Utilities and Instant Cake disks (possibly packaged with USB NICs) making more sense than pre-formatted drives at first. That will let you get some feedback from folks who are more experienced with TiVoWeb, TyTools, mfs_ftp, etc.

As for specific hacks, I think the usual suspects for networked TiVos apply. Folks want ways to move content between TiVos (mfs_ftp, NFS, etc.) and archive their content (TyTools, etc.). These in turn require this patch. Accessing these capabilities and controlling the TiVo (TiVoWebPlus) and controlling the hacks (Hackman) of course go hand-in-hand...

I'm sure other hacks will suggest themselves (things like EndPadEdit)...

Oh, and let me say again thanks for everything you are doing to help us get the most from our TiVos!

Hope this helps,
Peter



Good stuff, I appreciate your thoughts and the time you took to respond. We are definitely heading in the direction you are suggesting....

tivoupgrade said:Yes, it

tivoupgrade said:

Yes, it would be great to offer HMO, Replay functionality, and Microsoft Exchange Server on a unit, but that is simply not going to happen. Please keep the dialog going!

I believe that your biggest market would be to develop HMO like capability in only two areas, remote scheduling and remote video showing (livingroom TIVO to bedroom TIVO) and the elimination of the need to use a phoneline, allowing the use of USB based eithernet connection.

I might be wrong, but that is what I believe is what almost everyone wants for their SD based Series 2 DirecTivo's. And with almost 3/4 of a million receivers and no official support and there appears to be no future official support, that should be a large market to tap.

Everything else is very small potatoes, most likely less than 1/4 of 1% penetration of available marketplace. :rolleyes:

Anything short of these three features; I am sorry but I believe you are wasting your time. ;)

tbeckner said:I believe that

tbeckner said:

I believe that your biggest market would be to develop HMO like capability in only two areas, remote scheduling and remote video showing (livingroom TIVO to bedroom TIVO) and the elimination of the need to use a phoneline, allowing the use of USB based eithernet connection.

I might be wrong, but that is what I believe is what almost everyone wants for their SD based Series 2 DirecTivo's. And with almost 3/4 of a million receivers and no official support and there appears to be no future official support, that should be a large market to tap.

Everything else is very small potatoes, most likely less than 1/4 of 1% penetration of available marketplace. :rolleyes:



Three people in a basement just can't do that. Yes, I understand that there are people who want this. But there are also people who don't want it (DirecTV). And, there are laws in place which will probably succeed in thwarting any major efforts to do so, even legitimately (ever read the DMCA?)

tivoupgrade said:Three people

tivoupgrade said:

Three people in a basement just can't do that. Yes, I understand that there are people who want this. But there are also people who don't want it (DirecTV). And, there are laws in place which will probably succeed in thwarting any major efforts to do so, even legitimately (ever read the DMCA?)

Tivo is being allowed to use TIVO ON THE GO, and I don't think that anybody thought that would FLY!

Actually, you are 66% of the way there with USB ethernet and remote scheduling. I agree the hardest part would be subnet based local TIVO to local TIVO remote viewing. Funny thing, if we want and don't already have 2.4GHz phones that can be done, are you listening DirecTV. :rolleyes:

And all I want is LOCAL subnet viewing, within the boundaries of my home, NOT something as expansive as internet or TIVO ON THE GO capabilities. Anyway the DMCA is being re-written to allow more expansive features like TIVO ON THE GO, so LOCAL subnet based viewing would become LEGAL. See Moxi and others. It's actually coming if DirecTV, NFL, and other's want it or not. Roll forward about two or three years and it will be wide spread. :)

tbeckner said:Tivo is being

tbeckner said:

Tivo is being allowed to use TIVO ON THE GO, and I don't think that anybody thought that would FLY!

Actually, you are 66% of the way there with USB ethernet and remote scheduling. I agree the hardest part would be subnet based local TIVO to local TIVO remote viewing. Funny thing, if we want and don't already have 2.4GHz phones that can be done, are you listening DirecTV. :rolleyes:

And all I want is LOCAL subnet viewing, within the boundaries of my home, NOT something as expansive as internet or TIVO ON THE GO capabilities. Anyway the DMCA is being re-written to allow more expansive features like TIVO ON THE GO, so LOCAL subnet based viewing would become LEGAL. See Moxi and others. It's actually coming if DirecTV, NFL, and other's want it or not. Roll forward about two or three years and it will be wide spread. :)



Let me put this another way. Three guys in a basement can't do this. I can't turn this little company on its head to undergo a major development effort that is not supported and could only be achieved through reverse Engineering. Its not realistic.

I'm not trying to diminish your desire for something that would ultimately be very cool. I'm trying to be realistic - and I would like to keep this thread on track.

We are going to develop tools and a variety of packaging options for the hacks that are out there, for the HR-250 and several other Series2 units. If you have some input on this topic, I would appreciate it.

Your previous input is appreciated, but unfortunately, we are not going to develop what you suggested for a variety of reasons. If you can get those feature working, we'd certainly be interested in considering licensing it.

richierich said:Lou, at this

richierich said:

Lou, at this time what do you have in mind for networking capabilities? Remote scheduling? Sharing video between Tivos? I am not technically proficient in upgrading my PC or HD Tivo, that's why I sent it to you so you could upgrade it with a 300 gig HD. What will you be able to do for those of us who are not technical gurus when it comes to the world of PCs but have an adeuqate general knowledge. I want to be able to send videos back and forth between my units, that is number one. Number two would be remote scheduling. Thanks for your support.



Right now, we have two product families in mind:

1) pre-packaged kits (much like what we have today)
2) DIY utilities - cheap or free, but no frills

We are not an R&D organization; we are not going to attempt to make TiVo software designed for the Series1 SA units run on DirecTV units; that will get us, and a lot of people in trouble.

DIY utilities should give folks with the abilities to do such a thing, that possibility of course, at their own risk.

On the issue of pre-packaged kits, we will definitely have a network-enabled replacement drive kit bundled with a USB adapter. Once installed, your unit will be accessible via TiVoWebPlus through your home network. I have looked at hackman, which was previously requested, and its very neat and clean, we will probably pre-install that, as well. telnet and ftp are givens, as well. Possibly YAC (caller ID), as well.

tivoupgrade said:I have

tivoupgrade said:

I have looked at hackman, which was previously requested, and its very neat and clean, we will probably pre-install that, as well. telnet and ftp are givens, as well. Possibly YAC (caller ID), as well.

Lou-
An additional suggestion would be to include cron running Jazzed Dailymail (scroll down the page) as discussed in this post and this post.

Peter

peterd said:Lou-An additional

peterd said:

Lou-
An additional suggestion would be to include cron running Jazzed Dailymail (scroll down the page) as discussed in this post and this post.

Peter



That is a cool one... but there's no way we can set it up so that it works 'out of the box' -- people will have to download/configure that one themselves. Perhaps bundling it (inactivated) and having a how-to which shows people what to do would be worthwhile.

tivoupgrade said:That is a

tivoupgrade said:

That is a cool one... but there's no way we can set it up so that it works 'out of the box' -- people will have to download/configure that one themselves. Perhaps bundling it (inactivated) and having a how-to which shows people what to do would be worthwhile.

I can understand how this would be impossible to configure 100% out-of-the-box (simply because it needs the TiVo owner's email address and SMTP server info).

There is a "report only" mode which with the right settings (and crontab entry) makes it generate the daily report into an HTML file on the TiVo so that the dailymail tivoweb module can display it. I would think that much configuration could be done and tested. Then, the how-to could show someone how to set their email address and their ISP's SMTP server host; test the connection; and set "emailsendrequired" to true in the dailymail.cfg file.

Peter

I will look into that; its

I will look into that; its definitely cool.


peterd said:

I can understand how this would be impossible to configure 100% out-of-the-box (simply because it needs the TiVo owner's email address and SMTP server info).

There is a "report only" mode which with the right settings (and crontab entry) makes it generate the daily report into an HTML file on the TiVo so that the dailymail tivoweb module can display it. I would think that much configuration could be done and tested. Then, the how-to could show someone how to set their email address and their ISP's SMTP server host; test the connection; and set "emailsendrequired" to true in the dailymail.cfg file.

Peter
edrock200 said:Very cool

edrock200 said:

Very cool developments...personally I'd like to see this guys TivoWebModules as an option when installing TivoWeb:

http://www.ljay.org.uk/tivoweb/

I like the Wishlist management functions much better. I'd also like an elseed installer option, I think many people would be interested in this.

I've never used instant cake before, but if we already have hacked Tivo's will there be options to add hacks/programs via tpms or telnet/ftp? Or is this strictly for an unhacked Tivo?

Again, I've never used instant cake, but it would also be nice to have a "prompt mode" install or a "quiet" install. One would just do whatever hacks you want to install, the other would actually tell you (not in great detail but in general) what it's installing/hacking and what that function will allow. Many of us are curious about the process, but just don't have the balls to do it ourselves for certain hacks. :)



Looking at all the aforementioned capabilities.

As for the InstantCake thing... there are a LOT of things we'd like to do with it - but for $20, its just not profitable.

BTW, InstantCake for Series1 gives you a NetReady replacement drive kit - that means you can get telnet/ftp if you network the unit and you can download install additional hacks on your own.

edrock200 said:My series 2

edrock200 said:

My series 2 DTivo's are hacked, my primary draw towards this product will be for the HR10-250. People that are comfortable attempting hacks would still love a tool that can automate the process. :)

As for all the other stuff, I understand there limits to what you can do for a $20 product.



Cool. Yes, the HR10-250 is a lot of fun to hack into. Its unfortunate (but understandable) that extraction/archival is not permitted on the AVS forum. However, there is no better feeling than pulling content, in pure digital form, for the ultimate in time-shifting adventures; I'm WAY behind on some of my favorite shows -- and successfully archived almost the entire season of Six Feet Under onto not only my laptop - but into DIVX for playback on an Archos AV420 portable recorder -- that is going with us on the honeymoon...

tivoupgrade said:[...]

tivoupgrade said:

[...] archived almost the entire season of Six Feet Under [...] -- that is going with us on the honeymoon...

You'll have time for TV on your honeymoon!? :D

peterd said:You'll have time

peterd said:

You'll have time for TV on your honeymoon!? :D



You know... I realize I left myself open for that one... :-) We'll have a few days of down-time, but yeah, I suspect we'll not be in front of the tube too much...

Just wondering whether you

Just wondering whether you have any new estimates on an ETA for this?

Thanks,
Peter

jkeisler said:When will this

jkeisler said:

When will this Networking for S2 TIVO be available?



When its ready... ;)

I would like to enable

I would like to enable networking on my series 2 direcTv Tivo for the sole purpose of making the daily call via the internet.

Will this new product allow me to do that? If so, I'll be happy! :)

--Brian

Late answer to your original

Late answer to your original question.

Hi,
I want to answer your original question. I am not as technically savy as some who have posted responses here, but have successfully upgraded my DirectTV Series 2 using Instant Cake and 2 120 GB drives. I must say I love the extra space and thanks to you!!! So, I am reasonably capable...sort of...maybe...you be the judge. I would like to be able to network my Series 2 for two main purposes, 1) pull programs off my TIVO onto my PC for archiving, viewing, and even personal DVD authoring of my favorite shows, and 2) eliminate the daily call's reliance on the phone line.

Cheers,
sfirth

P.S. Can you tell me which format the shows are encoded in? What form will they take when I pull them over to my PC?

PTVnet PreOrder for Series2

PTVnet PreOrder for Series2 DirecTV products

You've waited long enough!

http://www.ptvupgrade.com/preorder/PTVnet.html

Stay-tuned for more details.

Requirements for Series 2

Requirements for Series 2 DirecTV TIVO

Hi.....

I have 2 Philips DirecTV 704 TIVO units. I'm not a heavy "TIVO tech" and basically just want to enjoy my TIVO without becoming a "hacker" -- I'd rather let you guys at PTV do that.

I was excited to see your announcement but noticed some of the very basic things in which I'm interested did not seem to be there:

1. WIRELESS ETHERNET: Would like to have recommendations from you as to wireless adapters -- if you've tested any.
2. NO PHONE CALL: Would like to eliminate the daily phone call -- this is primarily to prevent updating my software on my TIVOs so as not to destroy your mods.
3. FILE TRANSFER/DECRYPTION: Would like to be able to send saved videos from my TIVOs to my PC and be able to direct them to other TIVOs on my home LAN or play on my PC.

These seem to be top requirements so if they are not there you must have had good reasons. Can you clarify for me.

Thank you.

nitedawg said:Hi.....I have 2

nitedawg said:

Hi.....

I have 2 Philips DirecTV 704 TIVO units. I'm not a heavy "TIVO tech" and basically just want to enjoy my TIVO without becoming a "hacker" -- I'd rather let you guys at PTV do that.

I was excited to see your announcement but noticed some of the very basic things in which I'm interested did not seem to be there:

1. WIRELESS ETHERNET: Would like to have recommendations from you as to wireless adapters -- if you've tested any.
2. NO PHONE CALL: Would like to eliminate the daily phone call -- this is primarily to prevent updating my software on my TIVOs so as not to destroy your mods.
3. FILE TRANSFER/DECRYPTION: Would like to be able to send saved videos from my TIVOs to my PC and be able to direct them to other TIVOs on my home LAN or play on my PC.

These seem to be top requirements so if they are not there you must have had good reasons. Can you clarify for me.

Thank you.



It is what it is for now (btw feature #2 is available in the first phase of our PTVnet product offering).

Not everyone is willing to pay a bigger premium for video archival, nor are our current customers willing to wait indefinitely for a product.

The just-announced-and-not-yet-even-shipping products do meet an emerging need, will certainly be eligible for additional offerings when they are made available, and represents a good deal of hard work in the making.

We are not big on selling futures around here, so please don't ask questions about specific plans as I just won't answer them directly. If you are good at reading between the lines and carelly read the PTVnet announcement in the other thread, you will understand.

Thx.

Hi:I certainly know about

Hi:

I certainly know about trade offs in development (people resources, cost, time to market) as I was a product manager for a large computer company in a past life. And I am certainly aware that what you've released represents a lot of hard work -- I don't think I gave the impression of minimizing that.

However, I wanted to have clarification on what you are releasing -- just wanted to know if my observations were correct re: the 3 items (thanks for #2) that I thought were at the top of the list. And I also feel that it's important to provide one more "requirements' voice -- I'm sure you'll concur on that.

By the way, how do you plan to release upgrades -- If I purchase your product now and you later come out with upgrades, how would I get them onto my drive?

Thanks...

nitedawg said:Hi:I certainly

nitedawg said:

Hi:

I certainly know about trade offs in development (people resources, cost, time to market) as I was a product manager for a large computer company in a past life. And I am certainly aware that what you've released represents a lot of hard work -- I don't think I gave the impression of minimizing that.

However, I wanted to have clarification on what you are releasing -- just wanted to know if my observations were correct re: the 3 items (thanks for #2) that I thought were at the top of the list. And I also feel that it's important to provide one more "requirements' voice -- I'm sure you'll concur on that.

By the way, how do you plan to release upgrades -- If I purchase your product now and you later come out with upgrades, how would I get them onto my drive?

Thanks...



Thanks for understanding. I have similar background (if you want to PM me with more specifics, I wonder if our paths have crossed).

In any case, when it comes to future upgrades... Your unit will now be an entity on your home network. FTP/TELNET can be enabled/disabled through the TiVoWeb interface. We will continue to offer downloadable software products which you will be able to remotely install on your TiVo, or if you give us remote access, we can log in and do the installation for you. You'd need to know a bit about your network (eg - your ip address, and the ability to map telnet/ftp ports from your router to your TiVo so we can log in).

Where did you go to get your

Where did you go to get your information

Where dod you go to get your information?